Affirming Identity, Building Community, and Cultivating Leadership – DTH Episode 283 with Dr. Beverly Tatum

Affirming Identity, Building Community, and Cultivating Leadership

In this episode of Derate The Hate, Wilk Wilkinson sits down with Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum—renowned psychologist, author, and president emerita of Spelman College—to discuss the challenges and opportunities facing higher education in today’s polarized climate.

Dr. Tatum shares insights from her groundbreaking work on race and identity development, her bestselling book Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?, and her newest release Peril and Promise: Higher Education Leadership in Turbulent Times. Together, we explore:

✅ Why affirming identity matters for students and communities
 ✅ The role of courageous conversations in bridging divides
 ✅ Misperceptions around DEI and how leaders can reframe the conversation
 ✅ Preserving free speech on campus amidst political and cultural conflict
 ✅ How colleges can strengthen democracy through dialogue and leadership

Learn more about Dr. Tatum’s work in the full show notes for this episode at DerateTheHate.com.

The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!

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Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:19
Wilk Wilkinson
How do we build bridges across divides in times of deep polarization and fear? In this conversation, Doctor Beverly Daniel Tatum, psychologist, educator, and former president of Spelman College, joins me to talk about courageous conversations, the promise of higher education, and why affirming every student's identity is essential for our future.

00:00:22:19 - 00:01:12:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross. partisan organization working towards civic renewal.

00:01:12:06 - 00:01:39:10
Wilk Wilkinson
This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ.

00:01:39:12 - 00:02:03:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide.

00:02:03:21 - 00:02:12:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it.

00:02:12:15 - 00:02:28:02
Wilk Wilkinson
My guest today is Doctor Beverly Daniel Tatum, president emerita of Spelman College and one of the nation's leading voices on race, education and leadership during her 13 years as Spelman ninth president.

00:02:28:04 - 00:02:57:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Doctor Tatum's visionary leadership was recognized with the Carnegie Academic Leadership Award. She's also the recipient of the American Psychological Association's Award for Outstanding Lifetime Contribution to Psychology. The author of four influential books, including the New York Times bestseller Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the cafeteria? Doctor Tatum continues to shape national conversations on identity, inclusion, and the future of higher education.

00:02:57:06 - 00:03:20:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Her latest book, Peril and Promise Higher Education Leadership in Turbulent Times, tackles urgent questions facing college leaders today from free speech and debate to campus safety and the very viability of higher education. It is an honor for me to welcome Doctor Beverly Tatum to the Derate the Hate podcast. Here we go.

00:03:20:01 - 00:03:26:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Doctor Beverly Tatum, thank you so much for joining me here on the Derate the Hate podcast today. It's great to see you.

00:03:26:12 - 00:03:29:23
Dr. Beverly Tatum
It's my pleasure to be here. Wilk, thank you so much for the invitation.

00:03:30:01 - 00:03:30:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Yes.

00:03:30:10 - 00:03:32:11
Wilk Wilkinson
when I first saw the press release,

00:03:32:11 - 00:03:33:23
Wilk Wilkinson
for your book, Doctor Tatum,

00:03:33:23 - 00:03:38:11
Wilk Wilkinson
I saw one thing that stood out to me. And, and you talk about,

00:03:38:11 - 00:03:48:08
Wilk Wilkinson
courageous conversations are needed to to bridge today's societal divides. And and it resonated so much with me because of the work that I do with Braver Angels.

00:03:48:10 - 00:04:09:11
Wilk Wilkinson
And one of the things we often speak about is, is courageous connections across the divides and, and how important it is to listen to those that that we disagree with. So it really did resonate with me. And and I wanted to speak with you because of that. And I'm grateful for you for you being here today.

00:04:09:11 - 00:04:12:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Now that I know that was in reference to

00:04:12:05 - 00:04:18:02
Wilk Wilkinson
one of your latest books or that you've got coming out peril and promise and we'll get to that.

00:04:18:04 - 00:04:19:17
Wilk Wilkinson
But I want to step back,

00:04:19:17 - 00:04:21:20
Wilk Wilkinson
for the beginning of our conversation.

00:04:21:20 - 00:04:26:17
Wilk Wilkinson
And, and I know a lot of what you have done in your body of work,

00:04:26:17 - 00:04:38:17
Wilk Wilkinson
prior to now and still now uncertain. But is is talk about race and the psychology of of of racism and things like that. And, and as I was kind of looking at your work,

00:04:38:17 - 00:04:41:08
Wilk Wilkinson
Beverly, I saw that you had done a book,

00:04:41:08 - 00:04:46:23
Wilk Wilkinson
a number of years back called “Why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria?”

00:04:47:01 - 00:04:58:10
Wilk Wilkinson
And and I think that's kind of a play on self segregation. So can you start our conversation with, with that book and kind of what the inspiration for that was?

00:04:58:12 - 00:05:23:05
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Sure. Well, that title is a long title, and I'm just going to repeat it in its entirety, which is why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria and other conversations about race, and the reason why the second half of the title is important is because really, the book is about understanding race, how it has been used and defined in our society and,

00:05:23:05 - 00:05:30:02
Dr. Beverly Tatum
and how that translates into racism and what that means for how we view ourselves and other people.

00:05:30:04 - 00:05:50:23
Dr. Beverly Tatum
So I'm a psychologist and I write a lot about identity development and thinking about racial identity development in a race conscious society is something that a lot of teens of color in particular, do. And when they start to sit together in the cafeteria and the black kids or the Asian kids or the Latino kids or,

00:05:50:23 - 00:06:07:10
Dr. Beverly Tatum
so when those kids are sitting together in the cafeteria, it's usually a manifestation of their identity development in response to the messages they're getting in society about who they are, who they should be, what those stereotypes might be.

00:06:07:12 - 00:06:39:09
Dr. Beverly Tatum
And as they're trying to figure all that stuff out, they look for the company of others who are also asking those questions. So it's understandable why they might sit together in the cafeteria, particularly during their high school years or into college. But also, the book is not only about understanding that phenomenon, but also how racism operates and ultimately what we can do to interrupt that cycle so that we might all be more able to embrace each other as human beings.

00:06:39:11 - 00:06:45:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, and I think that's hugely important. And and I want to get a little bit deeper into that because,

00:06:45:13 - 00:06:49:19
Wilk Wilkinson
when we think about identity formation or identity development and,

00:06:49:19 - 00:06:53:20
Wilk Wilkinson
what quite often in my opinion

00:06:53:20 - 00:07:01:01
Wilk Wilkinson
or in my experience has, has led to a lot of the identity politics and the labeling and things like that.

00:07:01:02 - 00:07:11:08
Wilk Wilkinson
So can you talk a little bit more about the, I guess, the psychological impacts of identity formation or identity development and,

00:07:11:08 - 00:07:14:17
Wilk Wilkinson
I guess, how we can,

00:07:14:17 - 00:07:33:12
Wilk Wilkinson
as a society, better embrace identity development but not allow that to become such an ugly thing later on when it comes to identity politics and labeling and stereotypes and things like that?

00:07:33:14 - 00:08:01:17
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Yes. Well, to just again, I'm a psychologist. And so I think about things in psychological terms. We all have multiple identities. And what do I mean by that? I mean that we all understand things about ourselves and who we are. But the question I used to ask when I taught Introduction to Psychology, and I would ask my students on the first day of class to fill in this sentence, I'm just going to ask you to think about it for a moment.

00:08:01:19 - 00:08:28:02
Dr. Beverly Tatum
If I gave you a fill in the blank sentence and it started, I am fill in the blank and ask you to write in as many different words as you could think of. And let's say 60s. You might write things like I am tall, you might write I am white, you might write I'm I'm a man. You might write, I'm a dad, I'm a brother, I am hungry, I am,

00:08:28:02 - 00:08:31:13
Dr. Beverly Tatum
you could put any number of things.

00:08:31:15 - 00:08:36:20
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Some of those things might have to do with temporary status, like I'm tired or I'm hungry or,

00:08:37:04 - 00:08:38:23
Dr. Beverly Tatum
but I'm bored. But,

00:08:38:23 - 00:08:42:05
Dr. Beverly Tatum
but you might get in a classroom students.

00:08:42:05 - 00:08:49:17
Dr. Beverly Tatum
But the things that some of those words would be related to your relationships with people.

00:08:49:17 - 00:08:54:15
Dr. Beverly Tatum
I'm a son. I'm a father, I'm a employee.

00:08:54:17 - 00:09:19:10
Dr. Beverly Tatum
But some of those words will be about characteristics you have all the time. I am tall, I'm smart, I'm white. Whatever you might put about yourself. So the question is, of the thousands and thousands of descriptors you might have put on the list, why did you put the particular things you put? It has to do with what has been reflected back to you, right?

00:09:19:16 - 00:09:26:05
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Our identities are in some ways a mirror of what people have told us we are. So,

00:09:26:05 - 00:09:34:08
Dr. Beverly Tatum
if I grew up thinking that I was a good reader, it was because people were always commenting on my ability to read. Well, right.

00:09:34:08 - 00:09:40:03
Dr. Beverly Tatum
If someone said, I have a I have a very tall I have two sons and one of them is particularly tall.

00:09:40:05 - 00:10:05:12
Dr. Beverly Tatum
When he was seven, people said, you're tall for your age. And I was sitting with him one day and a man asked him how old he was. He was seven, and the man was about to say, you're tall for your age. And my son said, I know. Don't say it. I'm tall for my age, right. That that feedback we get now, you might say, well, people don't walk around saying you're white, you're black, you're Asian, you're Latino.

00:10:05:17 - 00:10:32:03
Dr. Beverly Tatum
But in some ways they do, right? If I, as a black woman go shopping and the shopkeeper starts to follow me around but is not following the white people around. Something about that interaction has to do with me. It's not because I'm a good reader, it's because it is perceiving me in a particular way and has a stereotype, perhaps about black shoppers.

00:10:32:03 - 00:10:57:06
Dr. Beverly Tatum
And that is triggering that behavior. My point simply is that what we think about ourselves and the things we pay attention to are often shaped by the feedback we get from the people around us. So I could describe myself and did as a black woman. I could describe myself as someone who grew up middle class. I could describe myself as a vegetarian.

00:10:57:08 - 00:11:05:03
Dr. Beverly Tatum
I could describe myself as two legged. I am two legged, but that's not an identity I think about much. To be honest.

00:11:05:03 - 00:11:10:05
Dr. Beverly Tatum
if I was.

00:11:10:07 - 00:11:36:04
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Temporarily or permanently impaired by a disability, lost a leg through illness or something, I would certainly be thinking about my identity as a person who has only one leg. It would impact my life daily in terms of how I got around all of those things. So when we think about why identity develops, it's not the person by him or herself who's developing that identity.

00:11:36:04 - 00:11:48:15
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Their identity, that it's being developed in the context of social relationships. In a race conscious society, people pay attention to their racial group membership because other people are paying attention to it.

00:11:48:15 - 00:11:52:17
Wilk Wilkinson
And that makes a lot of sense. And, and I think,

00:11:52:17 - 00:11:59:02
Wilk Wilkinson
just like so many other topics, Beverly, this is one of those things that that people oversimplify,

00:11:59:02 - 00:12:02:23
Wilk Wilkinson
they oversimplify and they just they just simply say, oh, well,

00:12:02:23 - 00:12:09:00
Wilk Wilkinson
the whole identity thing. And I'm probably guilty of this myself to, to be quite honest,

00:12:09:00 - 00:12:09:08
Wilk Wilkinson
because

00:12:09:08 - 00:12:17:19
Wilk Wilkinson
it does get frustrating sometimes when, when people focus so much on, on identity and not not the great pieces and,

00:12:17:19 - 00:12:22:02
Wilk Wilkinson
of, of, of people's identity and because, like you said, it's a multifaceted thing.

00:12:22:02 - 00:12:27:20
Wilk Wilkinson
There's, there's plenty of things that contribute to one's identity, but it seems like,

00:12:27:20 - 00:12:47:18
Wilk Wilkinson
especially different power structures want to, to focus on or use whatever aspect of a person's identity that is going to benefit them, not the person whose identity they're talking about. And and it becomes frustrating. But I think it's an oversimplified thing. And I think the,

00:12:47:18 - 00:13:05:22
Wilk Wilkinson
the, the explanation that you just provided is so important because it definitely helps people to or at least for me, it helps to to better understand the complexity of something that people often oversimplify.

00:13:06:00 - 00:13:10:18
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Yes. One of the things I write about in my new book, “Peril and Promise”,

00:13:10:18 - 00:13:18:12
Dr. Beverly Tatum
college leadership in turbulent times is the importance of leaders understanding the need to affirm identities,

00:13:18:12 - 00:13:27:08
Dr. Beverly Tatum
of the students who are coming to the school. I just want to give an example of that and and might help listeners think, well, why does this matter?

00:13:27:10 - 00:13:31:18
Dr. Beverly Tatum
But let's imagine you and I are in a group photograph,

00:13:31:18 - 00:13:45:03
Dr. Beverly Tatum
a bunch of people, there's maybe 50 people in a room and a photographer is going to take a picture of all of us together, and then each of us is going to get a copy of that photograph. There's one thing that each of us is going to do.

00:13:45:03 - 00:13:52:04
Dr. Beverly Tatum
We're all going to do the same thing, which is we're going to look at that photograph and try to find ourselves in it. Right.

00:13:52:04 - 00:14:00:08
Dr. Beverly Tatum
That's the first thing we're going to do. I'm going to look for myself and see where I am, and then I'm going to evaluate how I look. And my eyes open. Was I smiling?

00:14:00:08 - 00:14:15:09
Dr. Beverly Tatum
all those things each of us would be doing some version of that. But let's imagine that in that group of 50, 10% of us were digitally removed from the photograph. So

00:14:15:09 - 00:14:26:04
Dr. Beverly Tatum
that 10%, five and 50 are looking for themselves in the picture and not finding themselves. They had been removed. They were there when the picture went off.

00:14:26:04 - 00:14:28:01
Dr. Beverly Tatum
They were captured. But do

00:14:28:01 - 00:14:36:09
Dr. Beverly Tatum
modern technology? They've been removed from the picture. At first they would say, what's wrong with this picture?

00:14:36:09 - 00:14:47:07
Dr. Beverly Tatum
I was there. How come I'm not visible? But if it happened over and over and over again, every time removed from the picture after a while, they wouldn't say what's wrong with this picture?

00:14:47:09 - 00:15:11:17
Dr. Beverly Tatum
They'd say, what's wrong with me? How come I'm never included? Why am I always being left out? And when we talk in educational settings about how we create spaces where students can thrive, I of course I'm talking about at the college level, but the same is true K through 12. We need to see ourselves reflected in the curriculum in the classrooms and,

00:15:11:17 - 00:15:18:05
Dr. Beverly Tatum
in the environment, when we step into a workplace or a classroom, it's like entering into a photograph.

00:15:18:07 - 00:15:52:20
Dr. Beverly Tatum
And if we're never included, we start to feel invisible. And when we feel invisible, we feel unmotivated, disengaged from us. Student retention point of view. You're not likely to want to linger in places where you've been made to feel invisible. So thinking about how we affirm the identity of not just some of our students or some of our employees, but everyone, I think is a leadership characteristic, a leadership skill that is really important to think about.

00:15:52:22 - 00:15:54:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, it absolutely is important,

00:15:54:13 - 00:16:14:00
Wilk Wilkinson
and this is one of those things where, and we can, we can take the conversation a little bit deeper into, into the whole concept of Dei. And, and I think that's, that's something, if I'm not mistaken, that's something that you talk about in peril, the promise and the importance of leadership and, and how,

00:16:14:00 - 00:16:16:09
Wilk Wilkinson
especially in terms of,

00:16:16:09 - 00:16:17:14
Wilk Wilkinson
college presidents that,

00:16:17:14 - 00:16:22:20
Wilk Wilkinson
which you were for for a very long time, the the whole thing about how,

00:16:22:20 - 00:16:25:15
Wilk Wilkinson
secondary education or post-secondary education

00:16:25:15 - 00:16:27:22
Wilk Wilkinson
is in pretty dire straits right now.

00:16:27:22 - 00:16:29:11
Wilk Wilkinson
It's being attacked,

00:16:29:11 - 00:16:34:14
Wilk Wilkinson
from many different fronts. But but let's talk a little bit more than Beverly

00:16:34:14 - 00:16:34:23
Wilk Wilkinson
about

00:16:34:23 - 00:16:36:16
Wilk Wilkinson
the inclusivity thing.

00:16:36:16 - 00:16:45:04
Wilk Wilkinson
I think now, at least from my perspective, I think a lot of people don't have problems with diversity.

00:16:45:04 - 00:16:57:00
Wilk Wilkinson
They may have problems with diversity for diversity sake. And then if, like, diversity of thought is excluded, but diversity based on immutable characteristics is the only thing that you're looking for diversity in.

00:16:57:00 - 00:17:10:13
Wilk Wilkinson
that's that's where I think there's a problem on that front. But the equity thing definitely there's an issue there. But then inclusivity, I think inclusivity is hugely important. And I think most people that I know think inclusive,

00:17:10:13 - 00:17:16:11
Wilk Wilkinson
inclusion inclusivity is is hugely important. So let's can we break that down

00:17:16:11 - 00:17:18:00
Wilk Wilkinson
a little bit deeper then

00:17:18:00 - 00:17:19:06
Wilk Wilkinson
the diversity part.

00:17:19:06 - 00:17:21:13
Wilk Wilkinson
what if from your perspective,

00:17:21:13 - 00:17:28:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Beverly, what is the, the, the ugliness of DEI and how is it often misperceived?

00:17:28:04 - 00:17:29:07
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Well, I think,

00:17:29:07 - 00:17:34:02
Dr. Beverly Tatum
I'm not sure I would call it the ugliness, but the misperception of DEI,

00:17:34:02 - 00:17:38:21
Dr. Beverly Tatum
goes back to how we use language. I want to start with the word diversity.

00:17:38:21 - 00:17:47:22
Dr. Beverly Tatum
I have had the experience of hearing people refer to people of color as diverse individuals. Right.

00:17:47:22 - 00:17:52:20
Dr. Beverly Tatum
like we I came into the room and there were only there wasn't much diversity.

00:17:52:20 - 00:17:55:06
Dr. Beverly Tatum
There were just a few diverse individuals.

00:17:55:06 - 00:18:19:03
Dr. Beverly Tatum
When people use the language like that, it's I think it's a misuse because, of course, all of us, no matter what you look like, who you are, we all contribute to diversity. So if you walk into a room, there's 100% diversity, right? Because everyone is participating. Yes. But I think many people use have learned to use diversity language.

00:18:19:05 - 00:18:27:07
Dr. Beverly Tatum
As shorthand or code for talking about minority groups. I'm going to put minority in quotes here.

00:18:27:07 - 00:18:29:00
Dr. Beverly Tatum
So whether those minority groups,

00:18:29:00 - 00:18:33:05
Dr. Beverly Tatum
people of color or LGBTQ folks or,

00:18:33:05 - 00:18:34:14
Dr. Beverly Tatum
first gen students or,

00:18:34:14 - 00:18:37:20
Dr. Beverly Tatum
whatever that category is that is,

00:18:37:20 - 00:18:45:01
Dr. Beverly Tatum
often seen as on the margins, people will use the word diversity to refer to those folks.

00:18:45:03 - 00:18:47:19
Dr. Beverly Tatum
And the folks that are seen as more,

00:18:47:19 - 00:18:50:13
Dr. Beverly Tatum
majority or mainstream or,

00:18:50:13 - 00:19:16:04
Dr. Beverly Tatum
more fully represented as, quote, non diverse. But of course that doesn't make sense if we understand the true meaning of the word diversity. But the reason I take the time to talk about it, the misuse of the term is because for a lot of people, when they hear the for a lot of white people, when they hear Dei, they think that's about other people.

00:19:16:06 - 00:19:19:20
Dr. Beverly Tatum
They don't feel included in the conversation. They feel like

00:19:19:20 - 00:19:36:01
Dr. Beverly Tatum
if someone has a Dei program, it means they're trying to get more people of color or they're trying to bring in more LGBTQ folks or maybe more women of all backgrounds. And and if you're white and male, let's say you feel left out of that conversation.

00:19:36:01 - 00:19:45:13
Dr. Beverly Tatum
But in fact, which is one of the reasons why I prefer to talk about affirming identity, because everybody has an identity and everybody wants to feel affirmed in it.

00:19:45:15 - 00:20:13:21
Dr. Beverly Tatum
So when we think about that, it's not just about this group or that group, it's about everyone. How do we make sure that everyone is included in the photograph in ways that make them feel good about themselves and the institution? That's the A, and in some ways it's broader. It the didn't have to be so narrow, but it has been talked about in that way and has become, I think, a narrow term incorrectly.

00:20:13:21 - 00:20:17:08
Dr. Beverly Tatum
But nonetheless, that's that that's where we are. Yeah. The,

00:20:17:08 - 00:20:19:08
Dr. Beverly Tatum
equity,

00:20:19:13 - 00:20:22:13
Dr. Beverly Tatum
I'm very comfortable with the term equity and,

00:20:22:13 - 00:20:24:21
Dr. Beverly Tatum
and, and preferred to inequity,

00:20:24:21 - 00:20:35:01
Dr. Beverly Tatum
and I and, and those who say they don't want equity need to explain to me why they want inequity. I'll just leave that there. Okay. And the same with inclusion.

00:20:35:01 - 00:21:03:00
Dr. Beverly Tatum
if you don't want inclusivity, then it suggests to me you're looking for exclusivity. And again, what's the value of that? If we want to maximize the benefit of everyone's talents in our environment. So I talk about, as I said, and right at some length in my book about affirming identity, building community and cultivating leadership. And the building community is really important.

00:21:03:00 - 00:21:14:13
Dr. Beverly Tatum
If we are part of an organization, whether it's a college or a business, a corporation, a classroom, we want everyone to be rowing in the same direction.

00:21:14:13 - 00:21:26:06
Dr. Beverly Tatum
we're all working toward the same goal. And how do we get people to feel like they're part of that shared goal? Well, they don't feel part of the shared goal if you've left them out, if you've made them invisible.

00:21:26:08 - 00:21:54:10
Dr. Beverly Tatum
So the a affirming identity is an essential part of building community, and particularly at the college level, in higher education, helping students and faculty staff, helping all of us improve our skills at the A and the B is leadership development. Because in order to be an effective leader in the 21st century, you need to be able to engage with people different from yourself.

00:21:54:12 - 00:21:57:19
Dr. Beverly Tatum
You need to be able to even if you,

00:21:57:19 - 00:22:20:09
Dr. Beverly Tatum
don't speak the same language. You need to be able to sit and try to understand where someone else is coming from in order to lead effectively. And that takes practice. And so in a learning environment like a higher education, you can create those opportunities for practice. So that students are graduating with that leadership capacity, we are going to need going forward.

00:22:20:11 - 00:22:23:20
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. And that's so hugely important as somebody who's

00:22:23:20 - 00:22:25:09
Wilk Wilkinson
who's been a leader,

00:22:25:09 - 00:22:29:14
Wilk Wilkinson
for for a number of years and trained other leaders and, and things.

00:22:29:14 - 00:22:42:22
Wilk Wilkinson
Beverly, one of the things that I always think about when I think about a leader, somebody who's a leader versus just somebody who's a manager or whatever is is being able to provide that environment for for all the people who you are leading,

00:22:42:22 - 00:22:45:03
Wilk Wilkinson
to, to succeed,

00:22:45:03 - 00:22:48:16
Wilk Wilkinson
and it's not just about making sure some people succeed.

00:22:48:18 - 00:22:54:09
Wilk Wilkinson
A true leader is going to make sure that everyone is succeeding because, again,

00:22:54:09 - 00:22:56:02
Wilk Wilkinson
going back to your,

00:22:56:02 - 00:23:06:07
Wilk Wilkinson
your statement about making sure that everybody is rowing in the same direction, right? It's it's hugely important that nobody is left behind in that sense. So I think,

00:23:06:07 - 00:23:10:01
Wilk Wilkinson
when you talk about people feeling invisible and not,

00:23:10:01 - 00:23:14:04
Wilk Wilkinson
not feeling like they are actually part of that, that greater goal.

00:23:14:07 - 00:23:23:13
Wilk Wilkinson
one of the things that that, that I just keep on thinking about is, is the concept of, of synergy and how,

00:23:23:13 - 00:23:35:01
Wilk Wilkinson
the only real way for us all to flourish and succeed as a, as a I don't care whether it's, it's a, it's a family, if it's a community, if it's our nation as a whole,

00:23:35:01 - 00:23:46:01
Wilk Wilkinson
it's for everybody to to understand that, that we as individuals can come together and be part of something greater than the sum of its parts.

00:23:46:03 - 00:24:13:12
Wilk Wilkinson
But in order to do that, Beverly and I, I think it's hugely important, and it can't be overstated, is the fact that everybody has to feel like they're part of that photograph, right? They have to be able to to do that. And and I want to take this in the direction of the importance of conversations, the importance of listening and making sure that those people that we are having a conversation with are feeling heard.

00:24:13:17 - 00:24:22:23
Wilk Wilkinson
That's a huge part of what we do at Braver Angels. It's a huge part of what I try to do with this podcast and all of the the things that I do,

00:24:22:23 - 00:24:28:03
Wilk Wilkinson
in this, this kind of mission to better the world, one attitude at a time. So talk to me,

00:24:28:03 - 00:24:38:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Beverly, about conversation and the importance of listening and how how that to to get all our boats and all our people rowing in the same direction.

00:24:39:01 - 00:24:41:16
Wilk Wilkinson
The importance of listening in conversation.

00:24:41:18 - 00:24:45:06
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Listening is critical. And I think you have,

00:24:45:06 - 00:25:00:04
Dr. Beverly Tatum
really captured an essential component of bridging divides when you talk about the importance of listening, because people who feel listened to are more willing to listen to others. Right?

00:25:00:07 - 00:25:09:03
Dr. Beverly Tatum
listening to others with sincere interest builds trust. And as people trust each other, then

00:25:09:03 - 00:25:09:10
Dr. Beverly Tatum
what?

00:25:09:14 - 00:25:20:15
Dr. Beverly Tatum
It's easier to work through hard things. It doesn't mean we'll all agree. We may still have very different points of view, but we can at least recognize each other's humanity and try to work through those differences.

00:25:20:15 - 00:25:35:13
Dr. Beverly Tatum
One of the things that I advocate for in my book, power, peril, and Promise, is intergroup dialog, which is a particular pedagogical strategy, a teaching strategy that has been used on some campuses.

00:25:35:15 - 00:25:41:22
Dr. Beverly Tatum
It's often credited the University of Michigan is often credited with having started,

00:25:41:22 - 00:25:51:19
Dr. Beverly Tatum
the formal introduction of intergroup dialog into the educational environment. But lots of places have taken that ball and run with it. And it's,

00:25:51:19 - 00:26:02:11
Dr. Beverly Tatum
I think what's really compelling about creating classrooms where students are really learning how to dialog with each other, not debate, but dialog.

00:26:02:13 - 00:26:26:20
Dr. Beverly Tatum
And the first principle of dialog is listening, careful listening, learning how to listen carefully. And then after they have have the chance to build up their listening skills, they engage in tough conversations about hot topics, things that people have strong opinions about. But learn how to do that in a way that continues the listening even when triggered.

00:26:26:20 - 00:26:52:00
Dr. Beverly Tatum
As you said at the beginning, even when triggered, keep listening. And as that muscle, that listening muscle is developed, then they get better at working through difficult topics, engaging with each other on common problem solving, and doing that over the course of several weeks over the course of a semester is really life changing. When you talk to,

00:26:52:00 - 00:27:01:09
Dr. Beverly Tatum
young people who've had that kind of learning experience, they rave about it and talk about how they use it in their workplace, with their friends, on their teams,

00:27:01:09 - 00:27:03:01
Dr. Beverly Tatum
in their families, at home.

00:27:03:03 - 00:27:09:23
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Once you have that skill, no one can take it from you. And more and more of our students need to develop it.

00:27:10:01 - 00:27:11:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, without a doubt.

00:27:11:01 - 00:27:22:22
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, that is that is one of the things that, again, like I said, it cannot be overstated because as we think about the different things and and I want to dive a little bit more into this,

00:27:22:22 - 00:27:25:15
Wilk Wilkinson
especially the post-secondary education,

00:27:25:15 - 00:27:27:13
Wilk Wilkinson
thing and how you,

00:27:27:13 - 00:27:32:09
Wilk Wilkinson
say, again, higher education is under assault, but you also say that that,

00:27:32:09 - 00:27:33:17
Wilk Wilkinson
our university,

00:27:33:17 - 00:27:39:22
Wilk Wilkinson
our university system holds the key to addressing the ignorance and division that threaten our society.

00:27:39:22 - 00:27:43:04
Wilk Wilkinson
those skills. And,

00:27:43:04 - 00:27:54:08
Wilk Wilkinson
a lot of people don't naturally have them. And just like so many things in the human condition, right, we need to be we need to be trained to be better at things that we as humans just don't naturally want to do.

00:27:54:08 - 00:28:10:02
Wilk Wilkinson
But we want to protect ourselves. And, and a lot of times when we have been conditioned to believe that that that certain speech or certain things that are being said are violence or we're we just don't want to listen,

00:28:10:02 - 00:28:17:17
Wilk Wilkinson
when when we've determined that something is a trigger for us, our self-defense mechanism is to have our ears slam shut and we don't want to

00:28:17:17 - 00:28:21:05
Wilk Wilkinson
think about anything anymore. Right. We just don't want to hear it.

00:28:21:05 - 00:28:35:13
Wilk Wilkinson
But the important thing is, if we're going to get beyond our problems, our common cause problems, we have to keep the conversation going. If we just go to our respective corners or stay in our own silos,

00:28:35:13 - 00:28:38:22
Wilk Wilkinson
growth only happens outside of our comfort zone.

00:28:39:00 - 00:29:00:04
Wilk Wilkinson
We have to be able to listen in order for the conversation to continue, because we may not solve that problem today, Beverly. But if we are going to solve it at any point, we have to keep the conversation going. So let's kind of kind of round out our time here. Talk to me more about that and and how that relates to,

00:29:00:04 - 00:29:07:02
Wilk Wilkinson
apparel and promise and the importance of universities in helping to solve those societal divisions.

00:29:07:04 - 00:29:31:10
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Yes. Well, in peril and promise as just for the benefit of your listeners in parallel, I promise, I talk about a lot of the challenges facing higher education challenges like enrollment concerns, challenges like the cost of higher education, challenges like campus safety and, the mental health concerns of today's students. But there are many topics that,

00:29:31:10 - 00:29:35:04
Dr. Beverly Tatum
I discussed, but one of them is the,

00:29:35:04 - 00:29:56:03
Dr. Beverly Tatum
need to get beyond what I'm going to call the anti-gay fever that is sweeping the nation, because one of the things that's happening is that legislators are trying to tell faculty what they can and cannot teach, what they can and cannot talk about.

00:29:56:05 - 00:30:02:17
Dr. Beverly Tatum
And I live in the state of Georgia, one of the places where there is a law that says that,

00:30:02:17 - 00:30:05:06
Dr. Beverly Tatum
in public schools and publicly funded,

00:30:05:06 - 00:30:24:05
Dr. Beverly Tatum
institutions, there should not be discussion of, quote, divisive concepts. Well, what is a divisive concept? A divisive concept might be a discussion about civil rights because not everybody agrees about that.

00:30:24:08 - 00:30:40:20
Dr. Beverly Tatum
a divisive concept might be talking about, as we saw in the during the Israel-Hamas War protests on campus, your thoughts about whether you are supporting Palestine or or Israel,

00:30:40:20 - 00:30:44:23
Dr. Beverly Tatum
that that there are lots of hot topics. That's what I'm going to call them. Hot topic.

00:30:45:00 - 00:30:45:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, yeah.

00:30:46:07 - 00:31:07:10
Dr. Beverly Tatum
That bubble up during the course of a school year that students want to talk about. I have spent much of my career teaching about the psychology of racism. There are people who would say that racism is a divisive topic. You shouldn't be talking about it. You shouldn't be teaching about it. What I talk about in my,

00:31:07:10 - 00:31:29:02
Dr. Beverly Tatum
first and the previous book, you talked about where all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria and to some extent also in peril and promise is the fact that there is something I'm going to call the arc of discomfort, which is to say, when you ask students to talk about an unfamiliar set of ideas, they

00:31:29:02 - 00:31:33:09
Dr. Beverly Tatum
will experience some discomfort. That is common. Yes.

00:31:33:09 - 00:31:59:12
Dr. Beverly Tatum
But after they get used to having the conversation, they realize one, they can do it too. It's actually pretty interesting. And three, there's benefit in talking about it with other people, because collectively we can work about solving some of those taxing problems in our society. I often say it's like exercise.

00:31:59:12 - 00:32:19:07
Dr. Beverly Tatum
if you haven't been exercising for a while and then you go have a workout, your muscles are going to be sore, you're going to feel uncomfortable. And if you never exercise again, then, okay, you had some uncomfortable feelings and then you didn't have them anymore. The soreness faded, but you didn't improve your health either. That's right.

00:32:19:09 - 00:32:33:19
Dr. Beverly Tatum
If you exercise and get past that initial soreness, you get stronger, your muscles get stronger, and you feel less sore, and even you start to like it, you get the runner's high or whatever it is that you're experiencing.

00:32:33:19 - 00:32:44:18
Dr. Beverly Tatum
you see the benefit of it and it feels good in the same way. Talking about some of these really painful subjects is hard at the beginning.

00:32:44:20 - 00:32:46:02
Dr. Beverly Tatum
And if you say, well,

00:32:46:02 - 00:33:01:04
Dr. Beverly Tatum
I my student came home and was upset, that's possible. But come back next week and they'll feel better and it gets better. And so I think we have to be willing to experience some discomfort.

00:33:01:04 - 00:33:10:07
Dr. Beverly Tatum
I took statistics as a psychology student. I had to take statistics. I was uncomfortable in my statistics class, but I needed to learn it.

00:33:10:08 - 00:33:12:15
Dr. Beverly Tatum
And and I,

00:33:12:15 - 00:33:23:02
Dr. Beverly Tatum
and so I think we need to worry less about that temporary discomfort and more about the long term benefits that come from creating,

00:33:23:02 - 00:33:29:12
Dr. Beverly Tatum
creating the opportunity for dialog, productive dialog in the learning process.

00:33:29:14 - 00:33:31:05
Wilk Wilkinson
That is so important. I mean,

00:33:31:05 - 00:33:39:06
Wilk Wilkinson
again, just another one of the many things that we've talked about today that that can't be overstated is, is the idea that,

00:33:39:06 - 00:33:49:08
Wilk Wilkinson
you talk about the art of discomfort. I talk about the idea that we don't grow inside our comfort zone. It's only when we step outside of our comfort zone that we can really grow.

00:33:49:14 - 00:33:55:04
Wilk Wilkinson
And in exercising that muscle, exercising that muscle, it hurts at first.

00:33:55:04 - 00:34:00:00
Wilk Wilkinson
the first day after you're in the gym, you feel it. The second day after you're in the gym, you're really sore. But

00:34:00:00 - 00:34:03:04
Wilk Wilkinson
if you get back in the gym, eventually the

00:34:03:04 - 00:34:08:04
Wilk Wilkinson
sore muscles go away and you can you can do things that you couldn't do before.

00:34:08:06 - 00:34:12:04
Wilk Wilkinson
And that that is it is so important. Beverly.

00:34:12:04 - 00:34:24:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Doctor Beverly Tatum, this this has been just an absolutely wonderful conversation. So much wisdom here, so many important things. And I know the the listeners are going to get,

00:34:24:00 - 00:34:27:14
Wilk Wilkinson
get a lot out of it. I appreciate your time today. The book is,

00:34:27:14 - 00:34:29:14
Wilk Wilkinson
peril and promise. And,

00:34:29:14 - 00:34:33:02
Wilk Wilkinson
people can find that that book everywhere and certainly on

00:34:33:02 - 00:34:35:14
Wilk Wilkinson
a Beverly Daniel tatum.com.

00:34:35:15 - 00:34:37:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Is there any parting words that you'd like to,

00:34:37:10 - 00:34:39:12
Wilk Wilkinson
to leave the listeners with today?

00:34:39:12 - 00:35:00:06
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Beverly, I think we all need to understand how critical higher education is in the health of our nation. And it is under attack, right now. But we also know that there are lots of people who benefited from it. And I hope those people will speak up and say it mattered to me. It still matters.

00:35:00:08 - 00:35:01:06
Wilk Wilkinson
Thank you so much.

00:35:01:19 - 00:35:06:10
Dr. Beverly Tatum
Thank you.

00:35:06:10 - 00:35:36:06
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit BraverAngels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides.

00:35:36:08 - 00:36:02:09
Wilk Wilkinson
This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.