The Perception Gap: Why We Misjudge Each Other and How to Fix It - DTH Episode 292 with James Coan

Episode 292 — Correcting Misperceptions with James Coan of More Like US

 Misunderstanding each other is fueling a level of toxic polarization that’s tearing at our civic and social fabric. In this episode, Wilk is joined by James Coan, Co-Founder and Executive Director of More Like US, an organization that helps Americans see each other more accurately—especially on college campuses.
 

They unpack:
• Why we think our political “opponents” are more extreme than they really are
• How false stereotypes lead to fear, outrage, and hostility
• The perception gap: what it is and how it warps our values
• Why data can calm what misinformation inflames
• The CAST framework for seeing people as complex, admirable, similar, and worthy of togetherness
• How to interrupt the “race to the bottom” in our politics

This conversation is full of clarity, humanity, and real-world solutions.

Learn more about James and his work by visiting the full show notes for this episode on DeratetheHate.com or MoreLikeUS.org

The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!

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*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.

Transcript

[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, the real danger in America right now isn't that our political opponents are evil, but that we think they are. Those misperceptions are driving us in a breakneck race to the bottom. Today, we're digging into what happens and how to stop it with someone who's got the data, the insight, and the heart for this work. Stick with me.  Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The D Rate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross. partisan organization working towards civic renewal.  This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ.  Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide.  Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it.  If you've listened to Derate the Hate for any length of time. You know, I believe that most Americans are far better than the loudest voices would have us think. But the dangerous part is this when we get our understanding of each other from the worst examples and from the ugliest voices in our media and our politics and our social media feeds, we start believing a story about our fellow Americans that simply isn't true.  That's where today's guest comes in. I'm joined by my friend James Coan, the co-founder and executive director of More Like Us, an organization doing some of the most important work in the country today, correcting misperceptions and false narratives that drive so much of our toxic polarization. James has spent years studying the distortion gap, how we imagine the other side, and how those misperceptions lead to fear, outrage, and grievance what I call fog, and ultimately, actions that compromise the kind of people we want to be.  What I love about James is that he pairs real data with a deep respect for human complexity. He's not here to shame anyone. He's here to help us see more clearly so we can treat each other more fairly. We talk about why we exaggerate threats, why we stereotype how social media feeds the worst instincts in all of us, and most importantly, what we can actually do about it.  If you care about your country, your community, or just the quality of your own heart, this is a conversation you're going to want to lean into. Let's get into it with my friend James Coan. Here we go.  James Coan. Welcome to the Do You Rate the Hate podcast, my friend. So good to see you again. 

[00:04:10:18] James Coan: Yeah, good to see you. Thanks for having me. 

[00:04:13:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. Absolutely man. So we've got a number of conversations. Got to meet in person.  out in DC a while back and I,  I was really impressed, you know, with the work that you've been doing with More Like Us and,  wanted to have you on the podcast today, James, to,  talk about the the perception gap, which we'll get into,  you know, misperceptions, misconceptions of, of those we disagree with in politics.  But before we get there and we will get there, but before we get there, I want to talk,  talk a little bit about you. And, you know how you got into this. You know, this bridge building space, this depolarization space, and  how you came to become, you know what you are now executive director of More Like Us and the work that you're doing.  So. So let's start there, James.  Again, welcome to the show. And,  let's let's start with how you,  how you got into this. 

[00:05:07:12] James Coan: Yeah, sure. So,  I've always been interested in domestic politics and policy. My degrees in public policy. I got really interested in psychology.  In college,  but my focus was on energy as I were to think tank, and I was an energy consultant. Sounds pretty different.  But then the 2016 election happened. I'm like, my country seems to be tearing itself apart.  Not quite sure what's wrong, what I can do about it.  But I just started trying to get involved in volunteering in various ways, including for braver Angels, then Better Angels. And over time,  I realized that there were some, ideas, especially from academia. And there was an organization called more in Common,  that has some data showing that there are more commonalities across the political spectrum than people tend to realize.  And those offered a lot of potential for scale in such a large country of over 340 million people.  That dialogs may have a difficulty scaling sufficiently.  So three years ago,  I got connected with one of my co-founders,  soon afterward, another co-founder. And that became More Like Us. 

[00:06:19:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Nice,  So you went from the energy sector to,  to to the depolarization sector and and,  yeah, I mean, to to some people, obviously that sounds weird, but I mean, when you when you think about it, we we come from people in this space come from all kinds of walks of life, right?  I mean, I was a,  I was a truck driver and an operations manager for several years in the transportation industry before I, you know, before I started doing this. So,  I think one of the greatest things  about this space,  James, is, is, you know, we we aren't just a bunch of people who, you know, kind of grew up saying we're all going to be bridge builders and depolarized.  There's, you know, real life people with real life experience doing real things and we see this need for,  for togetherness. We see this need for for being able to work together on common cause problems and finding our way through these things. So,  so, yeah, there there are these gaps,  and it doesn't matter what industry you're in,  there are gaps that that need to be bridged.  And and it takes good people out there,  trying to bridge these divide. So, so then let's talk about, you know, More Like Us. And, so for people who don't know,  a big part  of  your work is talking about, you know, the misperceptions that we have,  of people and,  people that don't think like we do.  But,  but the reality is we got a lot more in common than than what separates us. And a lot of those,  a lot of those divisions are built upon misperceptions of who the other people are. So let's dive into that a bit more and,  talk to me about,  about how More Like Us is, is working.  Well, let's let's first dive into the actual misperceptions themselves, and then we'll get into, you know, what it is that you that you guys are doing to try and clear up those misperceptions and misconceptions of of who the other people are. 

[00:08:31:06] James Coan: Yeah, sure. So these misconceptions, some of this called false polarization perception gaps, meta perceptions,  some of you could even say words like prejudice,  and. Yeah. So,  the original work was an ideological difference. People overestimate just how different people's views are across the political spectrum. There's a lot more than that. There's overestimation of interpersonal hostility. And those just having conversations will be more tense and just worse.  And people tend to imagine there's all sorts of misperceptions, threat, which I think get to some of your fog, which hopefully we can we can talk about,  that. Right. People across political spectrum might dehumanize us more than they do. Might be more apt to commit acts of political violence.  And break democratic norms. And then there's stereotyping, you know, thinking that everyone on the other side is just like, you know, there's kind of one conception of who they are, and then there's inferiority.  You know, often they're terms like stupid or evil thrown around about those who might vote differently or identify any other political party. And that's a pretty toxic mix of distortions or misperceptions or whatever you want to call them, which dissuade people from interacting with each other. Why would I talk to those kind of people and can have bigger societal consequences?  Well, maybe I need to vote for someone who will stand up to that group. And why would there be any reason to collaborate with them? Right. They're they're so awful.  So you're right. That's the starting point. And there's a lot of work on, you know, that it is bad and also that some of these can be corrected with, with good outcomes. 

[00:10:14:14] Wilk Wilkinson: No doubt.  And when we think about that, I mean, just the effective polarization that comes along with,  with those misperceptions. And I think you make a really good point there.  You know what you just said there, James, about, you know, finding that that person, that entity that's really going to fight back against these people because now all of a sudden we're in an ends justify the means.  Situation. And we've we've come up with this, this, this concept of, of who this person is based on, on a lot of false information. We begin to think that they're not just wrong, that they're stupid or they're evil, and we need to do something equally ugly to combat what we perceive them as doing. So we we pick the worst of, of of entities to come back because they're a fighter.  They're going to they're going to take care of this problem for us. And now what we have done is we have taken our misperceptions and compromised kind of who we are, who we've always attempted to be,  in an attempt to take on an evil that we have now perceived. The other side as being. It's ugly. It's an ugly cycle because it's, you know, one of the things a friend of  mine and I'm sure you know him as well, Manu Meel from Bridge USA, you know, he said this toxic polarization thing is always a race to the bottom, right?  Because when we're when we try to fight evil with evil or we try to fight hate with hate, we all just end up further down, closer to the bottom. And like I always say, is you cannot hate somebody into,  believing what you believe or wanting what you want. It's just not possible. It is a race to the bottom.  So these these misperceptions that we have of people and the effective polarization that comes along with it. Again, they're not just wrong, they are evil. And now we have got to fight evil with evil.  Knowing in our logical brain that you cannot you cannot do that. Right? MLK said that you cannot you know, darkness cannot drive out darkness.  Only light can do that. And hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that. But when we allow those misperceptions of who people are, or we start to group people, like you said, into some monolithic,  thinking cluster,  we start to fight in very ugly ways. 

[00:12:50:17] James Coan: And, and I think in some cases the fighting can feel justified, right? If people are, you know, really that threatening like. Right. I think there are some groups that are that are truly threatening. Right? I mean, I don't think we're going to be like, oh, we're too affectively polarized against like, eco terrorists and skinheads, like, right, like right.  There are things to be concerned about. And like, yeah, there is a reasonable feeling.  Right. It's when it's overblown and and right when, you know, tens of millions of people are who, you know, how how many people voted in the last election is over 150 million. So each side gets more than 70 million votes. And to say, oh, 70 million voters are all like this, where that's what the left Things thinks are.  That's what the right thinks or that's who they are, right? That's when it gets overblown and dangerous. Yeah. It's kind of a a race to the bottom because yeah, if you want attention and an attention economy, I just have to keep screaming and doing more and more extreme, you know, make more extreme statements sometimes take more extreme actions.  So yeah, it it's it's pretty bad.  But I don't know if what I would do is exactly what I call love. I mean, it's there's some accuracy. And I do think that stories tend to have more power often than just drowning people with data. But, I mean, I think some data is helpful also because thankfully the data shows that, right, people are not as bad as and not as extreme as as often believed. 

[00:14:30:08] Wilk Wilkinson: No, that's absolutely right. And one of the one of the data points you I mean, a couple of great points there, James. But but,  one of the data points that you and I have discussed before, is the idea that, hey, you know, people on the left,  far overblow the the the number of people that they believe,  And these are vice versa, left and right.  And they they're both guilty of it, but far overestimate, the number of people who, who say they, they would, would justify political justified violence for their political ends. Right. And and these, these numbers are just blown completely out of proportion. And this is a it going back to what you said, the legitimate fear.  Right. These are these are very legitimate fears because especially in the wake of things like the Charlie Kirk assassination and, and here in the state of Minnesota, the Melissa Hortman,  you know, family, you know, that was the her and her husband that were killed and, and,  and the and the other,  state congressman here that him and his wife were shot,  in that same horrific,  you know, political tirade.  These these things are very legitimate fears, but they are often and I would say more often than not, they are very overexaggerated. And when you say, yeah, over 70 million people voted on either side, but then these things happen and then you get these larger mouthpieces out there, James, that are saying we simply can no longer exist with the other side, you know, or, you know, whoever it is, right?  You know, saying we can no longer coexist, as the right we can no longer coexist with the left or as the left. We can no longer coexist with the right. You know, statements like that, these broad, sweeping statements like that just kind of oversimplify it and say, okay, so everybody on the left believes that this was okay, or everybody on the right believes that this was okay, and everybody is this monolithic,  thought group,  talk some more about that because it is not true.  And it is ugly to even like kind of implant that into people's thought process that, that it is in any way true. So talk more about that, James. 

[00:16:56:01] James Coan: Yeah. Right. So I think,  if people have overly negative conceptions of each other. Right. If, if these people truly are totally different and hostile and threatening and stupid and evil and all the same, well, then, yeah, maybe we should be really fearful of them. And if I can get money and fame and attention by posting this on social media.  Right. Not only is there a distortion, there's an incentive to exacerbate these problems. So. Right. Just all these things are pointing in the wrong direction. Thankfully, I think truth is sort of on our side. So. Right. They're not so bad. And so really highlighting this,  using the information environment to change how we think and feel about our fellow Americans is really important.  I think there's a long history of it with all sorts of groups in society. Right? I mean, prejudice and stereotyping is nothing new. 

[00:17:58:16] Wilk Wilkinson: No, nothing at all. 

[00:18:00:23] James Coan: So like and. Right, I mean, attitudes toward all sorts of groups of people have changed, have improved in many ways. And I think often taking those kind of steps that right. I mean, it's astonishing to say looking at, say, data on like black white marriage. In the 1950s, Gallup interviewed least, at least white Americans, like 4% of white Americans then thought it was okay.  Now it's over 90%. So it's it's astounding changes in terms of how people can think and feel about those in other groups. And I think we can, you know, kind of emulate some of those strategies that have worked before, which can include conversations and interpersonal relationships, but also, involve, right, the information environment and what we see and hear about each other. 

[00:18:51:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. Yeah. No doubt in these, these types of paradigm shifts. And I think that's a it's a phenomenal example of, of real progress in our, in our human condition and in our shared humanity. Right. Is is when, when you talk about the  yeah, that particular paradigm shift in, in, in, in a, you know, racially intermixed marriages and, and things like that, I think that's it's hugely important.  And that's the kind of progress when, when I think progressive, you know, I obviously, you know, we're we're recording this shortly after the, the latest election and,  the, you know, the big win for progressive. There's a couple things that I've, I've seen and I'm like, I don't know that there's a lot of progressive about certain things that I've seen coming out of,  the, this election cycle.  But, but one of the things that I, I want to say,  James,  about the,  this idea of, of grouping everybody into, you know, the when we start thinking about us versus the then we really oversimplify the nuance in, in thinking amongst groups. Right. And and there is no question because there's a lot of things that I've also been seeing recently,  about some very, very, very hateful influencers that, that are out there that, that get lumped into,  whether they be the right or the left.  And these are some of the ugliest people that you would ever see online. And, and I'm not even mention their names because I don't want people to, to even go see the kind of things that they say. But but when I, when I think of  when I think of that, I always go back to,  to something that I remember,  George W Bush saying,  back in the day and about, you know, when we think about the other side, we, we think about them in terms of the ugliest example.  And I'm paraphrasing this, but we think about the other side in terms of the ugliest example that they have to,  to present to us. And then when we think about our side, we,  we give everybody the grace that the best people on our side deserve, right. And, and, and it's one of these things and I think it is part of our human condition.  Because when we start to think about our tribal nature as human beings and, and how we want to think about them and how we want to think about us, right? Because we don't want to we don't want to look at those people on our side, those people that we associate with, those people on our team and and, and really think, okay, this person really isn't a good person because then since they're part of our team, I might in some way be saying that I'm not that great either.  Right? Talk a little bit about that, because definitely it definitely sways our ability to perceive things in a, in a right and logical way. 

[00:21:57:07] James Coan: Yeah. And and I don't think humans are ever going to be entirely accurate on this point. So social psychology shows that humans are group ish. And, and even on completely irrelevant things like giving people different colored shirts or associating them with different shapes or, you know, one side of the room versus another or something like that. People can still like, give more money to those in their team than the other team when the differences are totally ridiculous and based on nothing.  So like. But it's not to say like destroy groups, or we should have no group identity because people derive a tremendous amount of meaning from groups. This is super important to people's lives, to have these identities and connection and sense of belonging. Luckily,  there's a lot of work showing that, you know. Right, kind of in-group love or,  you know, I mean, you're right, there can be work saying, hey, you know, don't think that everyone in your group is absolutely perfect, but usually people can identify lots of problems with other people.  So it's not often a huge issue, but externally. Right. Just, you know, feeling strongly toward one's own group does not necessitate hating another group. Yes. Your own group is probably going to be higher. You're probably gonna feel more warmly toward them. But sort of some of the old affective polarization data going back a number of decades. Right. So at a 0 to 100, the UN, the own party has always been around 70 something, 70, 75 like that.  But the other party,  in the past was closer to 50 and one. One cool.  Statement made at the bridging movement's summit by by a social psychologist was getting to math. 

[00:23:42:19] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:23:44:08] James Coan: Right. Like, I mean, dude, do I love the other party? No. Oh, do I agree with them on everything? No. But are they okay? You know, they're also Americans. Yeah. All right. And that's that's okay. I mean, to me, I would say it's kind of moving in the direction of trust, but possibly not fully getting there. But at least it's far away from the opposite of trust, of contempt and and fear.  And right here at some of your fork, I think what's so cool about fog is we can think of all of them, right? Fear of them, you know, outrage at them. Right.  Grievance. And because of that. Yeah. Right. So that's often kind of the implication. Like they are the problem. That's causing this, I think to a large extent.  So, so right, I would say we're going to have political parties. We're going to have identities. You know, maybe in the future they'll be, you know, a different system. They'll be more than two main parties. Who knows? But even if we have two main parties, right, like you can still be like feel a little more strongly about ours, but not absolutely hate everyone else.  And right. We'll have fairly accurate views of who they are. 

[00:24:49:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. And I love that, you know, getting to MIT, I mean, it's, it's it's one of those things where it's like, it's kind of funny. It's kind of just kind of quirky, but. But it's definitely. I will take. Yeah. Over car heat doom. You know, every day of the week. Every day of the week.  I mean, it's and that's the thing is, you know, you and I are old enough.  James said to remember when when not everything was made political and we didn't have to, you know, constantly put everybody in teams, in every conversation. And,  and everything was just kind of, you know, what do you think about, you know, what this politician said the other day?  Whatever it I mean, it's like I. Yeah, whatever.  Okay. So, okay, we talked about,  you know, briefly about some data points and data. Data is obviously a very important thing because it actually tells a truer picture than what our misperceptions are.  But but talk to me then, James, about, you know, what's More Like Us doing.  How are they using that data to to help to clear up some of these,  misperceptions,  that we have about each other and, and, you know, what are what are some of the solutions? I mean, we we know a lot of the root causes.  What are some of the solutions and what are what are some of the things that that you and your folks at More Like Us are doing to help to clear up these misperceptions, help to bridge some of these partisan divides? 

[00:26:23:20] James Coan: Yeah. So and More Like Us,  we aim to improve the,  political environment on college campuses, often by correcting misperceptions.  So we're we're very interested in kind of some of those, we would call it more fair game approaches. So there's a lot of work, say, Braver Angels and all of its alliances. And I used to run the DC Alliance.  It's more ground game, right. You know, kind of get a lot of people get them talking to each other. And we think that's very good. And also we want to change what people see and hear about each other and give people some kind of easy to remember skills. So we have on campus some,  messaging campaigns.  There's social norms,  which has often been used with drinking misperceptions.  So students think that their fellow students drink more than they actually do. And then they survey the students. And you tell the students, actually, you know, your classmates don't drink as much. And we think that there's a good analog with policy, you know, with politics and conversations. You know, your friends aren't going to get mad at you if you talk to someone who's different, the person who might have a different view in general doesn't want to be hostile toward you.  You know, the social norm is to talk to each other on campus, and then there's some more kind of campus agnostic messaging.  We just have call let's be civil. So we both love mnemonics. This is this is this is fun.  And and civil is a mnemonic that comes from a Stanford professor, Rob Willer, indirectly,  saying share stories, relate to their values and listen.  So as the L is civil kind of. So let's be civil. And, you know, it's kind of like a stop, drop and roll, right? So stop, drop and roll. Plus smokey the Bear, when it comes to fire safety, it's kind of like that. We can go a lot deeper. But you know, let's say something that's easy to remember.  And then also, we have some information about who people are across the political spectrum that they tend to be more civil, spelled normally toward us. They tend to be more curious about us. And we expect and we tend to have a lot more in common. And then we also have some resources, like a lesson plan about the perception gap causes, consequences and solutions, something called similarity Hub with all sides.  We've aggregated more than 700 individual survey data points that show overlaps across the political spectrum. There's some guidance for those in the arts and content creators, and we can package those for freshman orientation or first year programing for for college students to go in a little bit more depth. But still, this is probably about an hour.  Of information.  So, you know, we have five second information. We see a lot of fliers and get messages from trusted sources on campus. And then a little bit more depth, but still like about an hour,  going into some more. 

[00:29:18:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. And,  speaking of mnemonics, I mean, there there's there's one thing that you and I talked about before,  that I, that I think is really important when we talk about cast and recast. Right.  We,  there's and and I'm going to let you I'm going to let you you explain because you can do it better than I can.  But,  but I think this one is important because when we cast somebody into one group, I mean, I, I, I see this as kind of like one of those double meeting, like like my d, right. The hate. Right? D rate is, has a number of different ways that it it kind of fit for this. But  but cast and then recast but but cast stands for something so so get into that for me.  Just a touch James as we round out our time here. Because I think that's an important part of this whole thing. Just important part of the the kind of perception thing,  itself. So as we round out our time, talk about cast and recast. 

[00:30:14:01] James Coan: Sure. So yeah. Cast cast,  is a mnemonic for how to better portray those across the political spectrum. And really any divide and a better and more accurate light and stands for showing people as complex or at least more complex, more admirable, more similar and more worthy of togetherness. And we might otherwise imagine. And so that's compared with the opposite, some of the negatives that we've talked about seeing people as instead of complex, stereotypical instead of admirable, inferior like stupid and evil, instead of seeing some similarities, just noticing differences, and instead of trying to avoid avoiding people, seeing possibilities for togetherness, collaboration, friendship, other types of of relationships.  And this is really for, I mean, those in the arts and content creators, how to portray people in a better and more accurate light that yes, it's based on data.  And sometimes it's good to use some data, but right. This these can be captured in characters and storylines and really impact people emotionally to say, oh, people in that group aren't so bad. 

[00:31:22:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah.  that's it's so hugely important.  Again, because one of the things that I've talked so much about,  James, is, is, is how so much polarization is driven by,  misperceptions. And a lot of those misperceptions are driven by oversimplification of complex things.  We're all complex, you know, unique individuals that, that, that, that are so often,  oversimplified and thrown into,  thrown into these buckets, thrown into these labels that, that don't accurately represent who we are.  And,  and it just makes for, makes for an ugly outcome,  when we try to think of who,  who the other person is. So I, I love the idea, you know, complex, admirable.  Similar togetherness and,  worthy of togetherness. These things are so vastly important in, in the work that we're doing and more importantly, not just the work that we're doing.  Obviously, the we do the work for the for the end goal of having a stronger nation, having a stronger bond with our fellow, with our fellow Americans, our fellow human beings. So,  James, this is a this has been an incredible,  conversation went by very, very fast, as they always do. And,  just tell the listeners real quick,  where they can find out more about you, find out more about, More Like Us. 

[00:32:48:14] James Coan: Yes. So we have a website.  MoreLikeUs.org   You can find my contact information there or find me on on LinkedIn, if you want to reach out. But, yes, that has a lot of information or our resources. Many articles that we've written,  in the fulcrum,  and some descriptions of the initiatives that that we're starting on college campuses. 

[00:33:11:07] Wilk Wilkinson: Very good. MoreLikeUs.org and,  thank you, James. I appreciate your time today, man. 

[00:33:16:16] James Coan: thanks Wilk,  great to be here. 

[00:33:19:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit BraverAngels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides.  This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.